• Registered: 2008-11-25
  • Posts: 4,363

Topic: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

So I thought I’d better stop hijacking monthly screenshot threads and put some thoughts down about the Debian Squeeze testing that I’ve been doing. One thing that struck me about the recent conversations here is that my knowledge of using Debian was somewhat restricted to using pre-configured Debian releases such as Sidux, DreamLinux and Antix. After years of testing various distros, taking a netinstall Debian CD and building up a basic system from a standard install (no X packages) was something I’ve never tried in Debian. I guess everyone else just makes life to easy (Ubuntu included) when using Debian based distros.

So without getting into to many details about this I basically had a go at building a system from the ground up on an old R51 Thinkpad I had lying around. Overall it was quite a positive experience. I’ve finally gotten my head around what Debian means by Free and Non-free and other issues such as having to add in a kernel module for my wireless card that is there pretty much there as standard in most distros base package installs. The only major software problem I’ve had was Iceweasel being still at version 3.0.1 in Testing. Fortunately I was able to add the Sid repos to my sources.list, set Testing as the default distribution to avoid mass upgrades and then just install Iceweasel 3.5.4 from Sid. Ah, the joys of apt big_smile

In reality I’ve been so happy with how this has turned out that I’m launching into a 64bit install on my main work laptop this weekend. It’s a relatively new machine so I’ll be interested to see how I go with it in relation to the older hardware on the Thinkpad.

So where am I sitting on the Debian or Ubuntu as a base for Crunchbang debate? Well, it is probably obvious that I’m leaning well towards using Debian Testing for future Crunchbang releases. Clearly it would mean a lot of work setting up the initial default system but it would get Crunchbang off this 6 month release cycle that Ubuntu is locked into. I'm also not sure how Debian goes with Remastersys, with specific kernels having to be compiled to get it working. Perhaps bootstrap is an option?

I know its been talked about a lot but I’d like to put it up here in the Suggestions Forum for consideration in a thread of its own. Give me that and a basic XFCE (I can dream smile ) or Openbox desktop and I think Crunchbang would be on a winner smile cool big_smile

  • Registered: 2009-02-18
  • Posts: 581

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

There is something in the ubuntu's air wink because eeebuntu is also moving to debian (not ubuntu) as a base to avoid the 6 month release cycle.

  • Registered: 2009-11-03
  • Posts: 1,612

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

omns wrote:

I’ve finally gotten my head around what Debian means by Free and Non-free and other issues such as having to add in a kernel module for my wireless card that is there pretty much there as standard in most distros base package installs

That's pretty much the only reservation I'd have if #! were to ever favor Debian instead of Ubuntu. It would be nice having this troublesome Broadcom wireless chipset in my netbook work out the box like it does with current #! or Ubuntu installations (though I did have to purge and reinstall the driver on Kubuntu Netbook Remix for some odd reason). I know that adding the kernel module isn't really that daunting for a person who would choose to use #! in the first place, but it's just added hassle for most. (I'm spoiled, I guess)

I actually prefer Openbox over XFCE, but my XFCE experience is pretty limited, so that might not be a fair judgement. (I do feel that they should get rid of the rat as their mascot, though.... how am I supposed to ever take a Ratatouille lookalike seriously?!!)

Still, it was nice to hear your experiences, Omns. It's good that you chose a ThinkPad R series for your initial experience.... hard to find a more open source friendly laptop than that, I would presume (judging from my experience with a R400).

Much gratitude.
Cheers.

Point & Squirt
  • Registered: 2008-12-13
  • Posts: 269

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

omns wrote:

Overall it was quite a positive experience. I’ve finally gotten my head around what Debian means by Free and Non-free and other issues such as having to add in a kernel module for my wireless card that is there pretty much there as standard in most distros base package installs. The only major software problem I’ve had was Iceweasel being still at version 3.0.1 in Testing. Fortunately I was able to add the Sid repos to my sources.list, set Testing as the default distribution to avoid mass upgrades and then just install Iceweasel 3.5.4 from Sid. Ah, the joys of apt big_smile

Those things can be solved by the installer, which is supposed to be quite configurable, but the main issue might be

omns wrote:

I'm also not sure how Debian goes with Remastersys, with specific kernels having to be compiled to get it working. Perhaps bootstrap is an option?

there is a debian remastersys repo, but I couldn't get it to work for me (on sid). There is live-helper
http://debian-live.alioth.debian.org/, which is a debian tool that is also supposed to be very configurable, but it tends to break for testing & unstable targets, as it pulls the latest stuff from repos.
micerinos had a go at it here http://crunchbanglinux.org/forums/topic … runchbang/, it's basically a script to build a live debian-crunch using live-helper, I havn't visited it for a while but it seemed impressive.
I tried messing with it, but eventually did a ground up install too, and didn't find a way yet (didn't try much, too, I must say) to make the existing setup live or installable.

I think a debian base would be great, but it'll probably make those "maybe make foo as default bar" threads that much longer... smile

a.

  • From: France, but living in Prague
  • Registered: 2009-04-13
  • Posts: 222

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

Hello considering your experience Omns, I m curious to try a Debian based #!

My xfce experience with Ubuntu is not so good (but maybe it is because of ubuntu work on xubuntu is not good...) and I largely prefer Openbox in terms of configuration, responsiveness, cpu usage, lean and aspect.

so would prefer Debian + openbox

Adrien

  • From: Algarve, Portugal
  • Registered: 2009-02-07
  • Posts: 196

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

Omns, how about writing your steps through your debian install? Or maybe a wiki page about it? It could help us to follow your steps and test it out and share the experience.

Cumprimentos. Regards.
--
Asus EeeBoxPC 1501P and EeePC 1000H with #! Xfce Linux
  • From: California, USA
  • Registered: 2008-11-29
  • Posts: 8,647

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

^ if you're interested in setting up Debian, this might help some:

http://crunchbanglinux.org/forums/topic … ian-setup/

Note: ** Please read before posting **

BTW if you wish to contact me, send me an e-mail instead of a PM.
  • From: Rio de Janeiro, RJ, Brasil
  • Registered: 2009-09-21
  • Posts: 31

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

I just have one question: have the base Debian will become the #! more difficult for newbie (like me)?

Virus? What virus?
  • From: Algarve, Portugal
  • Registered: 2009-02-07
  • Posts: 196

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

anonymous wrote:

^ if you're interested in setting up Debian, this might help some:

http://crunchbanglinux.org/forums/topic … ian-setup/

Thanks, that's a nice reference. Still, I would like to see a more complete (in depth) guide from Omns.

Cumprimentos. Regards.
--
Asus EeeBoxPC 1501P and EeePC 1000H with #! Xfce Linux
  • Registered: 2008-11-24
  • Posts: 1,858

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

Luke_Linux wrote:

I just have one question: have the base Debian will become the #! more difficult for newbie (like me)?

Most everyday tasks are exactly the same whether you're using Ubuntu or Debian. Browsing the web, typing a letter, or watching a video are identical. Ubuntu and Debian are close relatives with 99% of the same DNA.

Installing Debian can be slightly more difficult than installing Ubuntu if your hardware needs "nonfree" or "restricted" drivers. But, it is only a one time inconvenience (because of rolling release).

  • From: Orléans - France
  • Registered: 2009-09-03
  • Posts: 234

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

snowpine wrote:

Installing Debian can be slightly more difficult than installing Ubuntu if your hardware needs "nonfree" or "restricted" drivers. But, it is only a one time inconvenience (because of rolling release).

If #! become a distro based on Debian, I think #! must have "nonfree" or "restricted" included by default in the liveCD, for a more simply use for the newbie  ! smile And all the goods specifics scripts of #! smile


+ 1 for Debian (but with the good hardware support of Ubuntu) and Openbox with "crunchbang modifications" !!! wink

My Fluidr (= Fickr) : http://www.fluidr.com/photos/kookadimi/sets
  • From: Brownsville, Texas
  • Registered: 2009-09-28
  • Posts: 107

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

snowpine wrote:

Most everyday tasks are exactly the same whether you're using Ubuntu or Debian. Browsing the web, typing a letter, or watching a video are identical. Ubuntu and Debian are close relatives with 99% of the same DNA.

The learning curve is nothing to fear.  "crunchbang and a backpack full of beer" -- fabsh

blog    dev-blog    deviantart    github
  • Ronin
  • #! Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-11-10
  • Posts: 95

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

And now we have two threads with the "Debian or Ubuntu as our base?" theme. Hmm.

It's the curly thread thing that happens in every forum, I guess. First I was interested in omns experience with Debian--fun, I'd say--and suddenly we're arguing in favor of Debian testing as our new base.

I'm just going to have to stick around to see what happens, no matter which way the wind blows. It's all Linux, after all.

Freedom to choose is the most basic of all rights.
  • From: Bloom County
  • Registered: 2009-02-13
  • Posts: 1,149

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

Debian or not Debian, that is the ?

#!, all else is but a shadow!
  • Ronin
  • #! Member
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-11-10
  • Posts: 95

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

It's very unlikely that we will waste our energies going completely independent, methinks.

Freedom to choose is the most basic of all rights.
  • Bruce
  • #! CrunchBanger
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-05-29
  • Posts: 242

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

@ omns - Go for it.  It can be done.  Like I said yesterday in another post here, a Debian based distro can work "out of the box" as the Dreamlinux crew proved.  I am not pushing DL here, I just installed #! yesterday to get away from Xbuntu that was causing me problems.  Put #! on the Debian bandwagon and I'm here for good I think.

gutterslob wrote:

I actually prefer Openbox over XFCE, but my XFCE experience is pretty limited, so that might not be a fair judgement. (I do feel that they should get rid of the rat as their mascot, though.... how am I supposed to ever take a Ratatouille lookalike seriously?!!)

gutterslob see above - give DL a test run and I think you will find that your wireless works out of the box.  It can work in Debian  smile

And just to add to your comment about OB and Xfce.  I started with Ubuntu on an old P-III (6.10) and when 8.04 really slowed the P-III down like another OS I switched to Xfce. People told me I should try FluxBox or OpenBox but my wife didn't like the "no panels" (shhhhhhh, don't you dare tell her I can install panels!! - I don't want them) Well, I fell in love with Xfce, Ratatouille or not, love that comparison, and it was a "big" decision to come to #! because of OB.  I had seen in forums for various distros that OB with PCMan and Conky were not really compatible.  If you check out Conky Hardcore! you'll know who I am.  However, when I saw that #! comes with a Conky "out of the box" I had to test it.  And while I was "updating" files here, I spruced up the default Conky just a tad - no Majongg to play, which was my norm.

Today I have about 26 hours under my belt with Openbox, 8 of those were sleeping, and for as much as I like Xfce it will take moving the Rocky Mountains to the east coast of Canada to get me to leave OpenBox.  I have 4 piped menus up and running so far and more to go. My wife even has her own menu "area" (submenu) that she is not complaining about at most.

Also I timed #! this morning (auto login) from pushing the power button to up and running: 23 seconds.  That beat Xubu by at least 30-35 seconds, if not more.  I noticed the boot time difference yesterday that's why I timed it today.

So let me say this again: Ohms - go for it! Paaaallllleeease!!

Have a nice day.
Bruce

Last edited by Bruce (2009-11-14 14:25:13)

  • Bruce
  • #! CrunchBanger
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-05-29
  • Posts: 242

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

Luke_Linux wrote:

I just have one question: have the base Debian will become the #! more difficult for newbie (like me)?

I doubt you would "really" notice the difference.  Ubuntu is based on Debian, just doesn't follow all of Debian's "Free/Non-Free" polices, hence a lot more stuff works out of the box.

Debian - hence ".deb" packages.

So making #! a Debian based system is eliminating one middle man and getting away from the 6 month headache of "Oops!" that wasn't good.  Debian is much more stable than Ubuntu.

I duel booted Debian a few months back with Xfce, it didn't have "all" the packages that Ubuntu has but still had a LOT more than I ever needed.  Also Ubuntu takes Debian packages and makes changes to them so that that version only works on Ubuntu.  It also does that with FireFox. Check it out:

Firefox: Edit > Preferences > Advanced > Update - and check out the greyed out sections.  With Ubuntu you can't even have Firefox "update itself" That's because Ubuntu and Firefox have an agreement!  Click on "Help" and you'll see something similar to:

Firefox
version  3.0.15

Mozilla Firefox for Ubuntu
canonical - 1.0

(c)1998-2008 Contributors. All rights reserved.
Firefox and the Firefox logos are trademarks of
the Mozilla Foundation. All rights reserved.

Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-CA;
rv:1.9.0.15) Gecko/2009102815 Ubuntu/9.04
(jaunty) Firefox/3.0.15

Have a nice day.
Bruce

  • From: Oregon
  • Registered: 2009-02-23
  • Posts: 16

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

I think it would be cool to base #! on Debian testing -- go straight to the source, eliminate the Ubuntu middleman! Honestly, I wish more Ubuntu-based distros would do this.

Debian  smile smile smile
Arch  smile smile
Slackware  smile

eyeofliberty's Website

  • From: California, USA
  • Registered: 2008-11-29
  • Posts: 8,647

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

Bruce wrote:

Firefox: Edit > Preferences > Advanced > Update - and check out the greyed out sections.  With Ubuntu you can't even have Firefox "update itself" That's because Ubuntu and Firefox have an agreement!

It has nothing to do with Ubuntu/Canonical. The Check for Updates is grayed out because you need root privileges to update Firefox.

Note: ** Please read before posting **

BTW if you wish to contact me, send me an e-mail instead of a PM.
  • Registered: 2008-11-25
  • Posts: 4,363

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

Bruce wrote:

So let me say this again: Ohms - go for it! Paaaallllleeease!!

Honestly, there is nothing for me to 'Go for'! I'm merely making a suggestion here and sharing my experiences.

Any decisions about crunchbang's future directions rest with corenominal smile

  • IgorP
  • #! Junkie
  • Offline
  • From: Zagreb, Croatia
  • Registered: 2009-07-10
  • Posts: 338

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

Well, since this spring I've convert to Linux, have one thing very clear about previous work on MS Widovs XP. I spend lot of time and energy to "mess with the system" try this, try that, new apps, old apps, optimise.. no ends.. And you know what ? With #! CrunchBang I found peace in mind and my machines.. Everything works well and I found strange to have time doing some productive stuff on comp or doing something that never had time before becaouse I always work on XP apps, updating, defragmenting,simply beeing not satisfied with OS..

If #!CB could be better on Debian base, I salute this, but I don't want to become worse smile


Regards!

IgorP's Website

  • Registered: 2008-12-13
  • Posts: 269

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

Bruce wrote:

    Firefox: Edit > Preferences > Advanced > Update - and check out the greyed out sections.  With Ubuntu you can't even have Firefox "update itself" That's because Ubuntu and Firefox have an agreement!

It has nothing to do with Ubuntu/Canonical. The Check for Updates is grayed out because you need root privileges to update Firefox.

I think it's also a debian thing, actually to keep the updates & plugins coming only from the package management for coherence. On debian's iceweasel they just patch that gray section out, and let it control only add-ons (which are kept per user).

I duel booted Debian a few months back with Xfce, it didn't have "all" the packages that Ubuntu has but still had a LOT more than I ever needed.

While true, that's not the most fair thing to say, as debian also has stuff ubuntu hasn't. currently ~26.5k packages on debian sid's main / contrib / non-free to ~28k on karmic's main / restricted / universe / multiverse. most are congruent, but some are here and not there, some are there but not here (/s here & there as you like..).

a.

Last edited by alon_h (2009-11-14 19:19:31)

  • From: California, USA
  • Registered: 2008-11-29
  • Posts: 8,647

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

^ Just to test my theory, I ran Firefox as root and the Check for Updates is no longer disabled:

http://www.zwixy.com/images/8109219022009111412582257761280x1024scrot.png

Note: ** Please read before posting **

BTW if you wish to contact me, send me an e-mail instead of a PM.
  • Registered: 2008-12-13
  • Posts: 269

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

Just to be sure, I ran Iceweasel as root and have no such option at all. big_smile
I know that other for the non-free branding, Mozilla also had issues with debian's modifications being more extensive then others'. I guess fiddling with those little thing in these big apps is what makes debian more stable... (and with 3.2 eclipse in Lenny, and iceweasel 3.0.14 still in testing...)

a.

Last edited by alon_h (2009-11-14 19:44:39)

  • From: California, USA
  • Registered: 2008-11-29
  • Posts: 8,647

Re: Debian Testing as base for next Crunchbang release (Suggestion)

So then the difference is between Firefox and Iceweasel.

Note: ** Please read before posting **

BTW if you wish to contact me, send me an e-mail instead of a PM.