• aaro
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

snowpine wrote:

"root" and "sudo" are nothing more or less than optional security tools. Whichever option is the default, some users will change it. sudo is an option available to all Debian users, so I don't know how you can say "sudo is not the Debian way." There are pros and cons to either method; saying that one is "better" than the other is a statement of opinion.

#! has always used sudo, so I am of the "ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. smile I am so used to sudo from 2 years of heavy #! use that I don't even give it a second thought.

I don't know if what you have put in quotes mean i told that, because i didn't, and if that was what you understood, you misunderstood it. I actually explained in the first post what i meant by the debian way. But i'll try to explain it better:

What you get after a StatlerA2/ubuntu default install:
one normal (restricted/unprivileged) user. The normal user is created with complete sudo privileges, meaning that the user can execute any administrative task always the command is prefixed by sudo/gksudo and the user's password is provided.

What you get after a DebianSqueeze (and most linux/unix-like systems) default install (what i meant by debian way):
one root account (all privileges)
one normal user account (restricted/unprivileged user)
sudo is installed but the normal user created is not in the sudoers list (meaning it can't use sudo/gksudo, any command executed with sudo/gksudo by this user will be replied with 'you're not in the sudoers list' message, so to execute any administrative task, they must be executed by the root user, and you can do that with the 'su' or 'gksu' commands and the root password)

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  • Registered: 2008-11-24
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

aaro wrote:

I don't know if what you have put in quotes mean i told that, because i didn't, and if that was what you understood, you misunderstood it. I actually explained in the first post what i meant by the debian way.

I understood what you meant, and please understand no offense was meant. smile (it can be tricky to communicate on the internet sometimes)

My point was that the behaviors you described for the different distros are nothing more than default behaviors. Defaults can be easily changed depending on the needs of the user. It is true that Ubuntu uses sudo by default, but it is also true that many Ubuntu users activate the root account (and the converse is true for Debian; many Debian users choose to use sudo). You can ask "what is the sane default?" but not "which default will satisfy 100% of users?" because that's impossible.

The nice thing about Linux is that we can customize it to our needs... thinking back on my Ubuntu days, what if somebody said to me "the default Ubuntu wallpaper is brown, therefore brown wallpaper is the "Ubuntu way!" wink

  • aaro
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

anonymous wrote:

I keep forgetting Debian likes to be different. gksudo uses the user password on Ubuntu (last I tried it) and Arch lets you change which password it accepts.

For what i have read about sudo, it's a tool that allows regular users to have certain privileges provided by the system administrator (root). So you always write the user's password with sudo, the only requirement is that the user is in the sudoers list.

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  • aaro
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

snowpine wrote:
aaro wrote:

I don't know if what you have put in quotes mean i told that, because i didn't, and if that was what you understood, you misunderstood it. I actually explained in the first post what i meant by the debian way.

I understood what you meant, and please understand no offense was meant. smile (it can be tricky to communicate on the internet sometimes)

My point was that the behaviors you described for the different distros are nothing more than default behaviors. Defaults can be easily changed depending on the needs of the user. It is true that Ubuntu uses sudo by default, but it is also true that many Ubuntu users activate the root account (and the converse is true for Debian; many Debian users choose to use sudo). You can ask "what is the sane default?" but not "which default will satisfy 100% of users?" because that's impossible.

The nice thing about Linux is that we can customize it to our needs... thinking back on my Ubuntu days, what if somebody said to me "the default Ubuntu wallpaper is brown, therefore brown wallpaper is the "Ubuntu way!" wink

No problem man. We're all #!'ers here and the best of this forum is that we can exchange ideas about almost anything keeping it friendly and polite smile.

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30 Reply by hhh

  • hhh
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

aaro wrote:

sudo is installed but the normal user created is not in the sudoers list (meaning it can't use sudo/gksudo, any command executed with sudo/gksudo by this user will be replied with 'you're not in the sudoers list' message, so to execute any administrative task, they must be executed by the root user, and you can do that with the 'su' or 'gksu' commands and the root password)

The administrator can add the user to the sudoers list with visudo.

BTW, it is a freak out when you set up all your customizations as a user and then switch to root only to find you need to reconfigure everything all over again, so I vote no.

Last edited by hhh (2010-08-17 23:03:47)

  • From: California, USA
  • Registered: 2008-11-29
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

@aaro - I already know what sudo is.

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  • aaro
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

hhh wrote:

The administrator can add the user to the sudoers list with visudo.

Sure. I didn't tell the opposite.

hhh wrote:

BTW, it is a freak out when you set up all your customizations as a user and then switch to root only to find you need to reconfigure everything all over again, so I vote no.

Again, you don't login to X as root. You turn into root user with su or gksu. What do you mean reconfigure everything?

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  • aaro
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

anonymous wrote:

@aaro - I already know what sudo is.

I believe you smile Never meant the opposite.

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34 Reply by hhh

  • hhh
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

aaro wrote:
hhh wrote:

BTW, it is a freak out when you set up all your customizations as a user and then switch to root only to find you need to reconfigure everything all over again, so I vote no.

Again, you don't login to X as root. You turn into root user with su or gksu. What do you mean reconfigure everything?

aaro wrote:

Now that #! will be based on debian, why not do it the debian way, which is the original/normal linux/unix-like way, a 'root' (privileged) user and a separate 'normal' (restricted) user...

I'm confused. I meant that if you have the option at the (GDM, in this case) login screen to login as either root or user and you log in as user and make customizations, for instance change your system font-size, when you log in as root you see the default font-size. No? And if you can't log in as root (as with Ubuntu), what are you asking for?

aaro wrote:

You can't login into X as root user (At lest this is the default in all linux distros i have knowledge of).

Huh? You can log in as root in a "pure" Debian setup, can't you? *goes looking fo Debian disc 1...*

To install something, what you do (like @titan said) is open a terminal and instead of doing sudo <command>, you type su root, type the root password, which isn't the same of the normal user (what is the key for security here) and you get a root terminal which won't expire like with sudo at a given time.
For root acces to graphical apps just use gksu <graphical-app> and again is the root password what you type. And most times this is already done in menu links to apps like synaptic package manager for example. So it won't really make any discomfort or complication other than having (like logic says) a different password for administrative tasks. And you can still have sudo installed, that's not it, the key here is to have a separate 'root' (administrative privileges) account.
And remember it's not my setup, it's the normal in all linux/unix-like systems. The only system i know that does this 'one user' thing is ubuntu.

Zuh? Wuh? Huh?

I need to learn more about security issues, for me anything past the log-in password is overkill. I never set a different root password, why should I? Can't one logout if they need to leave their computer running and are afraid for it's security? Someone enlighten me.

  • From: California, USA
  • Registered: 2008-11-29
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

hhh wrote:

I meant that if you have the option at the (GDM, in this case) login screen to login as either root or user and you log in as user and make customizations, for instance change your system font-size, when you log in as root you see the default font-size. No?

I'm sure you know that user preferences are saved in the user's home folder and root has its own home folder. If you make changes to your user preferences, they only apply to your user.

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  • titan
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

hhh wrote:

I need to learn more about security issues, for me anything past the log-in password is overkill. I never set a different root password, why should I? Can't one logout if they need to leave their computer running and are afraid for it's security? Someone enlighten me.

You maybe right but just about every other non Ubuntu based distro sticks with Linux convention of root and users. The big attraction for me with Stadler and future Crunchbangs is the change to Debian with all the flexibility that gives. Personally I think the default for Debian based Crunchbang should be Debian default of root and users but with a lot of users coming from an Ubuntu background that may not happen. It is a bit ironic  that the  Crunchbang symbol # is also the root cursor which sudo users hardly ever see.:)

  • Registered: 2008-11-24
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

Whatever Corenomial's final decision smile I think we all can agree, if #! switches from sudo to root security default, it would be a major change that needs to be thoroughly tested.

  • titan
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

snowpine wrote:

Whatever Corenomial's final decision smile I think we all can agree, if #! switches from sudo to root security default, it would be a major change that needs to be thoroughly tested.

It is the Debian default there is nothing to test. If this is to be the route then if a user wants sudo it is just "apt-get install sudo" as root of course smile   the simple beauty of Debian.

  • Registered: 2008-11-24
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

titan wrote:
snowpine wrote:

Whatever Corenomial's final decision smile I think we all can agree, if #! switches from sudo to root security default, it would be a major change that needs to be thoroughly tested.

It is the Debian default there is nothing to test. If this is to be the route then if a user wants sudo it is just "apt-get install sudo" as root of course smile   the simple beauty of Debian.

A cavalier attitude towards distro-building indeed! wink

Things that would need to be tested off the top of my head: /root has no user config like wallpaper, GTK theme, openbox config, etc. (since it is not currently intended to be used), any scripts that use "sudo" need to be rewritten and tested, any menu entries using "gksu" might break, GDM and logout scripts must be tested, documentation & wiki rewritten, etc.

This is not a change you can arbitrarily make just before a stable release; it would require another Alpha release at minimum and change the project timeline. 'sudo' on the other hand is well-tested through 2 years of previous #! releases as well as two Statler alphas. smile

  • Registered: 2008-12-13
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

^ anything that uses gksu will follow the system's default, a.i. if it's set to su will accept the root password. if it's using gksudo or sudo it might break, but only if they're not installed.
But I fail to see the problem here, anyone can set a root password on the current setup & use su if he/she wants...

a.

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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

alon_h wrote:

But I fail to see the problem here, anyone can set a root password on the current setup & use su if he/she wants...

Correct. This thread is discussing what the default setup should be.

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  • titan
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

snowpine wrote:

A cavalier attitude towards distro-building indeed! wink

Things that would need to be tested off the top of my head: /root has no user config like wallpaper, GTK theme, openbox config, etc. (since it is not currently intended to be used), any scripts that use "sudo" need to be rewritten and tested, any menu entries using "gksu" might break, GDM  and logout scripts must be tested, documentation & wiki rewritten, etc.

This is not a change you can arbitrarily make just before a stable release; it would require another Alpha release at minimum and change the project timeline. smile

I misunderstood what you meant by testing, I thought you meant testing to see if root was secure enough :lol:of course the new configuration will need to be tested and like all good Linux projects it will be ready when it is ready although I don't think it is such a major change, the desktop will just be a copy of the default user one.

  • Registered: 2008-11-24
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Re: Statler Default Users Setup.

titan wrote:

I misunderstood what you meant by testing, I thought you meant testing to see if root was secure enough lol

No worries! And for the record, I have nothing against using a root account smile in fact a couple of my systems (my CentOS server and my Fedora netbook) use su/root.